Would you play online qualifiers? Prefer not to but will.
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

As much as online qualifiers are not ideal people need to start opening their minds to this option. Considering the size of our nation and the fact that it isn't financially viable for people to be flying interstate on a regular basis for events I am surprised this issue hasn't been addressed sooner.

We are all aware of the con's of having online events/qualifiers so hopefully that isn't something the masses dwell on when discussing what are the best options for DNC2010.

do it in jan

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? Yes given that venue hiring would mean lower prize pool, post-groups played at lan anyway

Whats the necessity of putting it in early December? I know people are keen but thats when schoolies is, people go away etc. January / Feb most people are back and just looking for something to do, unless it clashes with something it seems logical to do it then. Kode5 used to be around that time if i recall correctly.

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes - be easier because i expect quals to be right before exams
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? It is for me because of exams, but obviously it would suit others
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? Yeah, keen for that

well whats the point in putting it in december when the quals themselves will inevitably be during exam times?
im not trying to be rude i just wanna sus out any potential flaws and stuff

Its dice nationals 2010 not 2011. 4 Months left in the year I'm sure you can fit it in 1 of them..

sounds like an amazing idea, and mojo/chiz schoolies starts 22nd november (at least thats when it did last year), so if your going 1st or 2nd week you'll be home, but not 3rd week!

I think for the average punter; money becomes an issue for them (re: flying to quals then flying to nats) so Autoberth's come into play pretty seriously for a lot of the teams.

Though online qual isn't a 100% accurate test of a player's true skill, perhaps making changes to the structure of the online qual(s) would change people's opinions.

At the end of the day, spunj is right - Online Quals are the way to go for Aussie Esports, even though quite a lot of us (all of us?) much prefer lan quals.

by those dates dekz, if you went the 2nd week (which i am), you won't get back until the 6th. however this end of the 2nd week this year is over on the 4th, so still wouldn't make it.

obviously don't just cater for a few year 12's, there's hardly anyone as young as us left anyway

No - bad internet, servers are horrid online
No - as long as it doesn't change
No - a lot of people never went to the last one
No - IPGN is doing its job

you're the best george, just putting it out there

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes. I would actually say this is preferable depending on amount of teams turning up at quals.

Does the format of the final matter? Not for me personally, although groups is preferable.

Is it too soon for another Nationals? Talk with CG, as you said it seems they will be hosting an event. Maybe take into account that. Depending on dates, I think December is fine.

Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? Probably not. Would not garner enough interest and probably die like CEVO. DICE/CG one day online comps would be better imo

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? If playing the qualifiers online meant there were autobirths, then no an online league doesn't trump an extremely competitive nats imo.

Online quals & LAN national finals is how they do it in the states and they suffer the same sort of geographical/logistical (ie. domestic flights, bad pings between east and west) issues that we do. I rate the idea. Should've happened sooner!

Also; Plz host online quals on servers which are hosted in Canberra!

Would you play online qualifiers? No
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No


Having online qualifiers instead of lan is imo the very definition of sacrificing the quality of the competition purely for the sake of prize money (the qualifiers are, and should be, as much a part of the whole event as the nationals itself). A good quality competition is the most important thing, with prizes acting as nothing more than a bonus, and if we start scrapping the idea of lan qualifiers then we essentially scrap the whole idea of lan cs. In the end we'll be left with a scene thats exactly like the css with very few lan comps and very few, if any, lan teams with practically every team being interstate. Once ur at that point its near impossible to dig yourself out of it, so avoiding it is incredibly important imo.

I dont know about others, but the reason i play CS still is due to lan. If for some reason tomorow lan just ceased to exist i probably wouldnt play cs anymore, and thats coming from a guy that absolutely loves cs. Also I havent even begun to touch upon the whole unfairness and instability of online play, with huge problems such as massive ping differences, bad servers, people interping, people mwheel, cheating, etc. Fighting for national spots online is probably one of the worst things I can think of. My $0.02

1.no
2.no
3.no
4.no

#19

davestr1zl a true proponent of the game

I've played in a couple of online cs tournaments. People always worry that a randy team will go through and win.

Whilst I cannot guarantee this, but every time I played in an online tournament (years ago) the 'top' aus teams made it through! When it becomes tournament mode.. people fire up.

The quality of LAN will always be, hands down, the best place to settle everything.

I mean, it's worth giving it a try, right? It doesn't hurt to try because it's not like something bad will happen if the competition fails (which it won't).

We have to try new things. Let's find things that work. It works overseas so why can't it work here too?

I agree with dave tbh.

Also is the whole reason about using online qualifiers basically for a bigger prize pool? If it is then I really disagree on using online at all.

i dont mind online qualifiers :D just k2p tbh

for a national with only cash prizes i reckon online quals could work. least that way you could get a scrim and not just people playing ipgn or get slapped bye ashock evrytime u want to scrim cause there the only team! Im sure it would attract interest bye alot of people, you would get close to 16 teams every qual id think. the best teams should be able to win on anything winner has to be able to win on lan at the end so even if some online team got threw there going to lose anyway as you would think. im sure the top 8-10 LAN teams are just as good online and can make the final.

get more sponsors!!

Every time a national and qualifiers are announced with adequate notice there is always a massive influx of teams practising regularly online prior to the events, so the ability to get wars online shouldnt change.

If the nationals is to have a smaller team limit (8-12 teams), then the goal should be to get the absolute best of the best and have the highest quality nationals possible. Online quals could drastically affect this. You said yourself chris, if those 'bad' teams were to get through (which is very possible) they would just lose horribly at the nationals... who the fuck wants to see that? Especially when there are other good quality teams that could be there instead but are missing out.

All the randomness factors aside that i previously listed which can affect results.. people are willing to cheat online just to win a mousepad, or even for no reason at all. You seriously think some people wont have a crack at cheating when theres fully paid flights to an interstate nationals on the line? Its not even worth taking the risk.

Also other issues that i forget to mention before include the need for some very solid rules regarding the use of interstate players (assuming the online qualifiers are still state-based) otherwise it will be very open to abuse, and figuring out a solid payment method which i know has been a big issue before when george and i discussed doing pre-payments for lan qualifiers.

in the end dave its a community national... know one is going over seas.. its for cash prize and im sure in the end the best would win. i would like to watch a game if a team made it threw the dbl elim then online group stage thats alot of scrims they must be decent.. im pretty sure it wont happen and its more prize money whats wrong with trying something new.. most people have said yes in the thread i rkn it would be pretty good to have a 16 teams quals for a change online or lan, if the anti cheat works why wouldnt you go ahead if it was possible to do so.

just my 2 cents i dont want a battle bye!

edit:A League would be good too

hmmm... online quals may get ipgn noobs playing too...

Dave has been on the receiving end of one of the major problems of online comps, is this colouring your view javid?

-Yes
-No
-No
-No

Online quals = WAHEL at nats. See ya there b0iZ.

One nats a year with online quals would get more people lanning, imo. If some randies start putting in some good performances against top teams online, they might actually start turning up to lan, and not just thinking they are wasting a day of there life getting romped at lan by some filthy nerds.

@Dave - Eac can remove the problems of 16bit, terp, mwheel, sprites, etc etc... so that shouldn't be an issue. If scrubs want to cheat to get an invite to nats, that's pretty filthy and you can bash them when they get there.

Give it a chance, imo.

i wud play it, and its a fkn gud idea, betta cash prizes etc.

ang asking the important questions

it would attract new people to lan hopefully when they get a taste of a comp worth trying to win

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? Yes
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

George fire me an email. :)

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes but prefer lan
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? Flexible
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

Trying something new wont hurt, how about sommi's post on inviting new teams because of a nice prize pool (potentially added by sponsors), online quals would help more with this.

Online qualifiers are an awful idea. There needs to be more online competitions to generate interest from new players, but not as a substitute for LAN comps.

Online competition needs to be on top of whatever existing LAN comps there are, otherwise you're just sacrificing a part of the LAN scene in the hope of attracting a few new players to LAN. But if there's even less LAN comps to play I don't see the point.

mmm only attractive part about an online comp is not leaving the house other then that subbing it 4laan is a bad idea imo!

There will always be a few LAN events each year. I think beedee is suggesting that LAN events be done by those with money and larger sponsorship base, whilst community comps go down this road.

the problem is the teams who'd be able to qualify online are the ones that consistently place last on lan

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

LAN > online

#31 i disagree, if they play cs why not come to a lan and just play? i've been to a few lans in sydney and i get owned every time from the best teams that doesnt bother me because i just play for the fun of the game.

DIOL means do it online now

maybe give invites to the top tier teams

iM/px.nz/arch/kbs because these guys are going to be in the nationals no doubt. (these guys pay 20-30 pp to add to the prize pool) = $600
without them wasting money to go to quals

and the rest which means 12 teams get a chance for a spot, 1 WA 1 SA 3 NSW 3 QLD 4 VIC

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

Interesting idea george, i know i pondered the same questions for ECN.

I only really have 1 problem and possibly 2 solutions.

How secure is EAC ? after reading the troll thread on esau im still not 100% convinced either way it is an adequate tool. The USA has ESEA which from what ive heard, is a much better PAY-TO-PLAY ANTICHEAT.

Moving onto the solutions (if you can call them that).

QLD - MELB ping wise is fairly bad, (MELB - SYD) (BRIS - SYD) isnt a problem. Can we still have region based online quals. I know when im scrimming even without EAC i feel more confortable scrimming against people from QLD for some reason i dont think they would cheat against other QLD teams...(doesnt really make sense i know but i still think its a valid point).

Cant we still have a LAN Qual per state (then run a few extra online ones at the end) ? In QLD we lose $15per player, but gain $15 per player. Realistically 1 qual (10 teams) earns 750 and loses 750. But probably 6 of those 10 would back it up at an online event so 750+. For the sake of lan!!


DDOS ? - can the servers handle it ? Last time we did anything remotely this big online was the StensGaming Invite, and it was heavily DDOS'd.

Would you play online qualifiers? Only if their was no Lan Qual AND the servers were decent (not IPGN Melb)

Does the format of the final matter? No, not at all

Is it too soon for another Nationals? No, im keen to run another myself :D

Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? Lets sort out Online Matches first (one dayers and quals - then look at a league).

Qualifiers atm take up two days of lan - If 12 teams were to sign up for a particular states qualifier you could host the first day online to reduce the teams down to 4, than those 4 teams can battle it out the next day at LAN.

Makes it much more fair IMO as it would be impossible to swindle an invite to nationals - benoR playing for the iM girls in an online comp problem springs to mind. You just wouldent be able to tell who was actually playing online.

Anyway, this would reduce the lan costs as only 4 teams wuold need lan computers = 4x5 + 3 comps for admin = 23 computers insted of the 40 usually hired. Will cut costs and ensure enough money is raised (even less computers are probably needed, maybe even only 13).

No need to thank me.

George I think most of the community has agreed previously that prize money isn't that important at all.. We just want to enjoy the few LAN/national events there is in a year. I wouldn't want to waste another LAN event for online quals just so theres a bigger prize pool at the end. Coming from a player that has atleast a small chance to win the prize money I really dont care how little it is. The less LAN quals/comps there is just makes it worse at the end of the day. LAN = fun, online = rage/hate.

Also GoMeZ idea about 1 qual each state is good. Then you can have a few online LCC or something. Also giving out invite to teams like parallax/SA team/WA team and they have to pay rego money if they accept. Could work just as good imo.

So do you really think any qld team will register till the 4th qual? Do you think Melbourne teams will register for the 4th qual? Already lost money there. People paying for the 1st and 2nd qual and still not making it through. I wouldn't join the 3rd or 4th qual personally. You're expecting 12 teams each qual which won't happen at all. I get 30 ping in melbourne servers, nevermind qld/syd/SA.

At the end of the day it's you're choice but I think more than enough people can you give you excuses why not to do it

#19 dave spot on. I totally agree.
#46 gomez as well has some good points.

I really would rather play at lan then online, but I guess I also understand why online can be better for a qualifier.
But there are problems such as the ones gomez has talked about, ping/ddoss/etc..
Also I don't understand how it would work with say a team that has 4 in one state and 1 in another?
Are the qualifiers going to be run online as state qualifiers or?
So for eg. VIC teams play in a VIC server vs other VIC teams online for how ever many spots. QLD does same with their teams, and so on.
Or are all teams vsing each other from every state?
If we do it that way, how is it going to be fair on WA and NZ if they are vsing teams with much lower pings?
Also if we make the qualifiers the same rules for the invite as they are at lan, so say the core 3 rule.
How are we going to know 100% who’s playing on what team on the online qualifiers?
Sure we have the steamids but anyone can use anyone’s steamid.
Unless we go through IPGN with peoples IP’s and link the steamids up to see the right people are playing on them, that’s ok I guess.
As its an online qualifier, if there are a lot of say IPGN players who make teams and end up getting an auto birth from this, if they are all spread out all over Aust, isn’t this going to be more costly then having it as a state qualifier?
I am also 100% against using the IPGN servers, as they are totally terrible at the moment.
They used to be good ages ago but as of late they are bad.
Maybe if we use some DICE or CG hosted servers that have nothing to do with IPGN, they might be ok.
But honestly I would much prefer lan qualifiers.

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes, but prefer not to.

Does the format of the final matter? Depends, if we do the qualifiers and the groups online as your saying wont we be able to fit more teams in then? As you will then have two whole days for the finals?

Is it too soon for another Nationals? No? Hows this too soon its in Dec? Not next month.

Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No, I would rather we try this nationals out, as online leagues tend to die out of interest a few weeks after they start.

Any way that’s just my opinion.

Smurfing can be almost fully eliminated using the CyberGamer system for online quals. (That is providing that the alleged smurf has played a game as themself in a CG game)

werent there 16 teams at the last dicenats and it was fit into 2 days?

Peek the dog server is ready for nats usage

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes, i would prefer lan
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No, not really
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? I would prefer Online Comps/Events, One day comps are good. P2P leagues wont work in AUS ESports.

CG are allways here to help with servers.
I could get something coded as in STEAMID Checker bot. Just to see if the right person with the right steamid that signed up.

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

#52 who went and who didnt go to WCG this year is completely irrelevant as there was only 5 days between when the qualifier happened and when the nationals started. Of course not many teams are going to go. If enough notice is given most teams wont have any trouble booking flights etc as all of that is incredibly cheap these days. This can be seen at last years dice nats, this years ECN etc. Getting full turnouts is fine as long as notice is given.

And george in #51 ted was pointing out that no qld team will play the qual thats on a melb server, likewise no melb team will play the qual thats hosted on a qld server etc (as everyone has pointed out in this thread online servers suck), so the numbers will be drastically reduced at each qual.

Shard is right in #38. Online comps are fine, as long as they are not a substitute for lan, but as an additional thing. Reducing the number of lan comps for any reason is never a good thing, especially in a year that has had by FAR the least number of lan comps in the history of aus cs.

You do realise there has been only 3 lan comps in melbourne this year? With similarly low numbers in syd/qld. Compare this to last year with all 3 main states averaging 1 comp per month (11-12 per year). There are fewer and fewer lan comps happening, and reducing that number even further will only help kill the scene more than it already is dying atm.

Keep the lan qualifiers, and if gaining prize money for the nats is for some reason an issue (even though it shouldnt be), then hold some 'fundraising' tournaments (both online and lan) prior to the nats. We have exactly 4 months until the nats occurs, so there is plenty of time to do it. And more comps + more money = everyone wins.

Test out running some paid-to-play online competitions (which should be done regardless tbh) with like $10 rego per player with prizes like $200/$100 for 1st/2nd, still leaving you $300-500 of leftover money, depending on turnout, per comp held.

I dno, but there simply HAS to be a better way of getting money (money which isnt even really needed tbh) other than simply scrapping lan comps.

that server is atrocious #56 and you know it

yeh and obviously the quality of team will diminish after each qual as more and more teams qualify, so in theory the last qual should be the easiest, how do you decide what city the server is in?

Although personally I dont agree on the idea of online qualifiers because of

1. the possibility of cheating
2. the ONLINE factor
3. the ping issue
4. my own personal preference to play on lan

the advantage do outweigh the negatives because

1. setup costs minimal (no internet cafe charge)
2. time delays minimal with organisation - (because of being run online beedee and his crew can control the whole show by themselves)
3. No setup time for players, (usually we’ve got the whole..we need to setup..fix our settings..mics..warmup whereas at home your all setup no drama in setting up)
4. money goes directly to the finals
5. coverage guaranteed
6. and the best teams, will always be the best because it is infact a team game and tbh teams that have that strength in being a team...will always win

Now I personally would still prefer LAN, but it just sounds so much easier to run these online quals and then again...if people are worried about the whole online factor, we can structure the qual in a way that you get many matches to prove your position in the finals? I’m not sure how you wana set that layout but I think a really cool idea is to do something similar to Brisbane’s point system that they have,

Maybe drop the rego money a little and run 3 online quals in each state with this point system in mind? that way there would be a bigger prize pool for the finals? Not sure just an idea.

In final, i think its worth a shot, i mean if it fails we will at least know for sure that it is not a future option and aside from that if we do decide to keep the lan qualifiers, id opt for daves idea with the p2p fundraising comps, it wouldn’t hurt its a good idea to run those comps regardless you will almost certainly get a decent turnout providing you stake a little bit of prize money at the end of it to keep the interest in still playing. Then youve got money to keep for the actual nats

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No

As mentioned previously, in an online comp it would be hard to track 'who' is playing on the steam account.

#63 i think the point system is a good idea to counter your arguement, provided you lock in a rule saying that as a team you must attend atleast two of the 3 qualifiers? also with the proposed group stage finals held online in terms of the whole "WHICH SERVER DO WE PLAY ON?" maybe use a home & away system?

i dont think its a good idea playing the national group stages online though!!!!

I think almost every valid point has been made.

But one i think that a main reason that cs is still alive today would be because LAN has kept it alive
Its the old saying DIOL as mentioned before and LAN is more about fun not so much rage/hate. etc

If it does go to online >
maybe if there was enuf funds directed there could be some Aussie-HQ servers? i think iM and the old ZYM servers were run off them i sure they have ddos protection "measures" in place as well.

Would you play online qualifiers? Yes
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No (I don't think people care much about online comps unless there are enough prizes, eg. last cg comp, lots of teams didn't show up)

How about each state has their quals played online to decide the top 4 teams. No one will complain about the internet cuz everyone has pretty much the same ping on local servers. After that, the 4 teams go to lan and play for the autoberth and invites. That'll save a bit money on venue hiring cuz a maximum of 12 games (if there is a 3rd place decider) will be played using only 20 computers.

Moreover, I think the main reasons some people don't sign up for lans might be some of these:
1.money(rego/transport/lunch)
2.not worth it only playing 2 games with a $30 rego.
3.living too far away from the venue
4.can't win anyway, why bother spending over 40 bucks and play to lose.

Online quals might attract more teams cuz it's cheaper and more convenient playing at home, and people can actually play more games if our admins are kind enough to run the games all day.

However, if you are a hardcore lanner, online qual is definitely not the choice. We better have a poll to see what the exact percentage is.

there have actually been a stack of qld comps #61

^ we've actually had shitloads LOL

actually yeh u guys have had 7 including the nats, so ur still pretty much on track with the 1 per month average

how about you do this,

hold LAN qualifiers, then a last chance online comp WITH rego fees.

then perhaps an online comp WITH rego that is a BONUS qualifer, with a guaranteed 5th seed?

you could potentially make abit of cash from all of that no?

not including epgl or the likes

well there was 1 a month last year not including epgl, so i didnt include it this year either (of which there was only half a season anyway), i did include the epgl finals though.

Either way my main point was that its undeniable there has been a very significant decrease in lan competitions this year, i cant possibly see how decreasing that any further can be a good thing for the state of aus cs.

there was only 2 weeks of epgl season played in 2009. Either way, QLD loves their lan.

i agree with what you are saying though

you will never see pgc or a team from WA at nats if the quals are online, it is just 2 hard with 80ping vs decents

Would you play online qualifiers? No
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No

doudou refer to #47, stealing my ideas fuck you!

With a minimum of four months notice, people aren't going to struggle to get travel and accommodation sorted out. Larger prize pools aren't necessary, because teams are being given plenty of notice and won't have the same problem in not being able to get together the money to attend as they did for WCG. Only PGC or another WA team might require reimbursement to cover high flight costs.

I think it's a ridiculous idea to replace part of what few LAN comps we have with online ones. It's a disservice to everyone in the long run, regardless of how easy it sounds to hold qualifiers online it's certain to do more harm than good in the long run.

playing online qualifiers when at least 80% of the community have cheated rampantly at one stage.. lol.

gl.

edit: sc2 for esports dominance

Why the fuck would this be played online.....
so many factors clash with this.
Just diol

Would you play online qualifiers?Would prefer LAN
Does the format of the final matter?Not really
Is it too soon for another Nationals?No way!
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim?no.

like whoever it was that said it, if we NEED extra prize money just hold extra p2p online comps to help raise money, and would be good fun in themselves. But i think keep LAN to LAN, since so many people think its the only real form of cs anyway.

cbf reading all the posts #79

And imo, a poll regarding the finals format & prizes should be needed before the nat finals as well, only taking votes from players who are gonna compete in the finals. It's always about the majority rule.

I 100% agree with everything davestr1zl is saying - Mastermind of Counter-Strike.

edit: that isn't sarcasm if it sounded like it.

Pollexs input on this matter is very valid as he lans all the time and is a beast. Wait...no what am I saying.

Even though me and jdm and whoever else we get to play at lan always end up getting dommed it's still ridiculously better than online. Sydney has not seen much comps this year, with pacman not really wanting to run events anymore, this nats being played online could really be fatal to our states lan situation :<

As others have already said why not hold the quals at lan and then have comps online to beef up the cash pool.

yeah im calling the lil fag out sorvn run at me cunt............. diol filthy cheat

Would you play online qualifiers? No

Agree with dave. The comp isnt about the prizes, its about the title and playing cs. I doubt that having smaller prizes will affect the turnout of top tier teams. I mean all the top teams are getting autoberths down to the event anyway IMO that is enough incentive to play.

Online quals would be shit due to all the factors mentioned (pings/servers/cheating). The point of the comp is the fact that it is LAN CS.

Simple fix: REDUCE PRIZEMONEY.

Beedee you should add a fifth question to ur initial set of four:
WOULD YOU PLAY IN THE COMP IF THERE WERE NO PRIZES?

Agree with doudou, syd teams vs syd teams on syd servers online etc, then the top 4 or so teams vs each other at lan in their state, to reduce venue costs. Therefore you still have to DIOL to qual and i'm sure like coNz said the top teams are always going to be the top teams online or at lan.

i agree with miracleman , also some people have laptops/shitty comp etc + with (pings/servers/cheating)

yeh dave knows what his talking about. We rock up to every LAN event as a team, after being inactive since the last LAN, knowing we're getting smashed. Not because we hope to win, or qualify, or get any prizes. But because it is fun. If we have online quals, then teams like us might never be able to LAN EVER AGAIN! (*cries) and then 1.6 will actually die. LAN is the only thing keeping this community together and although some might think 'it doesnt matter, as long as the top tier teams get to LAN at the finals' - wrong. wrong. wrong. us newbies want to LAN aswel. :'(

P.s - as some people have already pointed out, we can have 1 day online comps with small rego fees and no prizes to raise some money? im sure there would be enough keenies.(these would actually be really fun regardless)

#91 put a tear in my eye... How would you feel if goonz didn't have another LAN event for the rest of the year because you want better prize money that will effect realistically only a few teams and those few teams don't give a shit about prize money. It's not like you see EMC, xplosive, those 4-5 slut teams that always attend melb comps play online. And I don't see them making all those slut teams just to play online, they do it to play LAN because it's FUN!!! Fuck the prizes, just run nationals they way they have been ran for the past.. forever.

Online quals = Good for the top5/6 teams in Australia that actually have a chance for the prize money. For the rest of Australia it just sucks massive dick and is totally unfair. The end

What about some small one day comps with say a 20 dollar rego, and perhaps a prize for first place? Something fairly cheap thats cs/gaming related. or perhaps some other incentive for winning other then cash?
Im sure we could get 8 teams to these one dayers in melbourne. I really enjoy the 1 day comps to be honest

make compulsary p2p online comps for the teams that want to compete @ dicenats, run say 3, and make it you have 2 attend 2, or say run 2 and say you gotta attend 1, for example

the lesser players like myself are not going to pay to play online, online is simply not fun...

This is why we support the comm by getting teams to each lan event.

if you start asking too much of the lesser players/teams, people are simply going to walk.

You cannot expect us to keep handing over cash to fill your pockets with nothing in return, so how do you expect to improve the all round quality in australia?

the ONLY reason why i would pay to play in a fund raising comp is IF, you take a page from tegs.

Have the players (a sole player or a few depending on the situation) from the better teams give up an hour or two when they're not scrimming to help us out and teach us to play the game.

what?

#95 kemz, i dont see how you see it as getting nothin in return, your giving money in order to play more tournaments when there is currently none online & lan. As well as that its fueling a bigger nationals which can potentially bring more sponsors in?

you clearly cannot comprehend what i am trying to get across.

#86.
why does this random even turn up to lans?
its like giving $25 away for free.

mhhh New Caledonian can play if the qualif are online ? and if we mix with some aussies can we still playing ?

no yoco.

Cant remember the time when beedee took your money and did nothing with it tbh kemz, so yes i clearly cannot understand what your talking about.

go the fucken deez

He's saying he isn't going to pay money for something he doesn't enjoy (playing online). Most teams prefer to pay money to go LAN because it's more fun that staying home and raging at rego.

play the lan quals not sayin not 2, sayin play the fundraiser comps

LOL@ #99

i dont play but w/e, throwing an idea
lan "qualifiers" for an autoberth or whatever money is left over to winner
rent a hall for byoc + partner with a sc2 community who want to run a lan also(entry fee makes up prizes)

byo is a great idea only problem is people getting their pc's interstate

would booking halls out and having comps byo be cheaper than using lan cafe's in aus? then perhaps have the national at a venue

Hey guys, not so well known around these parts but i have helped out IPGN by throwing in the EAC for the IPGN CSCOMP system and help george out where i can with some resources.

I actually said to george if you offer them online quals they will burn you at the stake. I have done these before with other games like cod4 and CSS which had online quals and the winner was flown to the event so their total spend was $10 for maccas on the day.

The hard thing for you 1.6 lads is even though 1.6 is still the premiere stage game in gaming, AU is such a big country and getting you guys into the one place is difficult. I have considered doing this for the 1.6 community but i hit the same stalling point. The last CSS event i ran we had online quals where 8 groups of 4 teams battled it out and the top team from each group was flown expenses paid to the lan live event. This was all good but insanely expensive. This worked in CSS because the teams literally are spread all over the country. Now for 1.6 its even harder as you guys have to assemble your team at a lan centre for a quals then fly them to the event itself.

Then you consider the fact that the lan centre if you get say 40 machines is going to cost you $1000-$1500 a day. Make quals in Syd Bris Mel, thats $4500 just to get you guys qualified, then another $1500 or for a 2 day event $3000 for the venue just for the day. AGAIN this is a lan centre which is often NOT an ideal place for professional gaming as the chairs are often shit and the desks not designed for proper gaming with full size mousepads.

I love doing live events but theres nothing i find more frustrating than seeing slut teams of whoever lives in that city or 2 from one team then 3 sluts forming teams and it being called an esports event or a nationals.That to me is no different than calling one of those big BYOC lans comps nationals.

My target for an event is that you DO NOT pay to enter and you either get flown there or get some kind of per team flight allowance. I had looked at a late this year event but with you guys having ECN and WCG you have in a sense had more nats/large lan events than any other gaming community.

But i am working on something at the moment which hopefully can change that but like i said its very expensive and requires very large scale coordination and an extensive list of partners. The last counterstrike source event was held with online qualifiers and of the $20,000 spend $16500 went direct to the players through flight bookings and prizemoney. The bulk of the prizepool goes in flights (for the last one some $12,000 of it as i was mandated to run it on the queens birthday weekend where its cheaper to fly to hawaii than from hobart to sydney)

I watched the ECN nationals closely and what disturbed me the most was a sydney qualifier with 3 teams there? I would want to see at least 8-12 teams at each state qualifier and the question i ask you guys is more along the lines of is there even a big enough community?

oh yeah sorry for the wall of text :)

Talnoy hiring out lan cafe's are nowhere near that expensive, for example to hire 40 pc's at midcity (melbourne) per day it will cost you either $400 or $600 for the day (depending on what the competition is called). Prices are likewise similar in both Syndey and Queensland.

The reason it ends up costing alot is because we generally run multiple (2-3) quals per state, but this isnt always a bad thing as if each qual is profiting money due to rego fees then it just means more profit in the end.

The reason this thread was brought up with the possible idea of scrapping the lan quals was because all of these national-scale events are run with literally $0 funding behind it. Every single dollar is earnt entirely from rego fees at the lan qualifiers, so if we could eliminate the lan hire costs and run them online it would of course maximise the funds for the nationals.

And i can assure you that the lan cafe's in both melbourne/queensland (not so much sydney) are perfect for competitive gaming tournaments (heaps of desk space, good pcs, chairs, etc).

As for the turnout at quals, there has definitely been a decline over the years but there are still plenty of teams. Normally we would expect ~10-12 teams at vic/qld, with maybe ~8 at sydney, for some reason ECN sydney got very few sydney teams really not sure why but most other sydney comps ran throughout the year got decent numbers. There is also the SA/WA scene which can amount ~6 teams too. So yes, i would say the community is definitely big enough, or else we wouldnt continue to bother run events like these.

can we not just get the ballR's dad to fund this nats or..

or fergs dad.

or davestr1zls dad.

or b00mser

thanks dave experience is based on SYD lan centres which definately aren't ideal.

I talked to beedee about this it just frustrates me that the running budget = entry fees! thats what sponsors are for.

Oh how I miss Sten and his organisation StensGaming.

One solution: bring back the Sten!!

too many dickheads fucked around sten like they fucked around karl, its dumbcunts that fuck the sponsors off and managers by just taking there shit and fucking off or abusing/dogging teams

weve pissed away all the sponsors

i dont blame sten or karl lol

neither, its the truth. Australia would be so much bigger if there was a little more respect within the community between players and sponsors.

rize i didnt understand a word you just said mate :)

wait disabling profanity filter

oic

"too many around sten like they around karl, its that the sponsors off and managers by just taking there and off or abusing/dogging teams" - Prolific - rizE 2010

LOL

thats how i roll m8

LOL

Sydney had some problems... The quals were scheduled two weeks apart during a 5 week availability.

2 of the weeks were pre-booked for a dota comp so ECN took the remaining available weeks (which happened to be ANZAC day, and then MOTHERS day). We had no other option, as we couldnt postpone the nationals or change venue for the qualifiers.

However in the end a fair few sydney teams turned up to nationals

Vikings
ZK Gaming
Regulaters
eXile 5
Immunity
Archaic
KT (Canberra)


Fair keen to run another ECN (maybe early next year)

keen for another ECN :D

yer do it earlier in the year since most other comps seem to happen the 2nd half of the year ^.^

Would you play online qualifiers? yes
Does the format of the final matter? no
Is it too soon for another Nationals? not for us, we havent played cs in a long time
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? yes

XL would put forward a team if it was online, because the chances of us making it out would be slim, and we're all over the country.

Then it's settled. Online qualifier for 1 invite first up with an entry of $10. Followed by all state quals at LAN.

Good plan WAHEL.

1 Online invite (auto) + 3 VIC + 3 QLD + 3 NSW + 1 WA + SA + NZ if availableaTrON.

You could even play the online qual over three legs for 1 invite with a points system of some kind?

A lot of what I’m saying has been said in this thread already, but….

As it has been said in the thread already, there can be no substitute for LAN cs. The LAN qualifiers must stay otherwise you are taking away one of the main reasons for playing the game. Everyone knows online CS is not as fun, a lot of players don’t even play online and only show up for LAN competitions. If you remove the LAN you remove the players. Online qualifiers run alongside LAN qualifiers could work. Run an online comp (or two) for a partially funded auto berth ($ provided upon receipt of booking) to nationals. This could allow for teams such as XL to play, and I’m sure there are other teams that would do so as well. Not to mention it opens the door for a lot of potential Source/IPGN players that might be interested.

The format of the final is somewhat irrelevant, however, the more teams you can get to the final the better. If you limit it to 8 teams rather than an 16 team nationals, it potentially turns away teams from wanting to compete in the qualifiers. If you can run multiple qualifiers and offer 4-5 invites to each state (WA, NZ, and SA each to receive also), it encourages more teams to compete. even if you ran one qualifier in each state offering a number of invites ranging down to 4th/5th place, this would encourage more of the lower teams to compete, rather than having to play for first place each time. The more teams you have at the finals, the more teams there is practicing online. This also makes the community stronger, as teams potentially playing in the finals won’t have as much down time between competitions.

It’s never too soon for another national competition, and the more of these we can get happening the better. As mentioned, the constant downtime between competitions is slowly killing the scene off. We roll past WCG every year and there is a massive break before the next comp. Players lose interest and don’t want to keep playing for 6 months before the next competition. The more reasons we can provide to people to keep playing the better.

Why can’t an online league be run simultaneously? I know it has been tried in the past, and in some cases it has failed, but in some cases it has worked. If you could run an online league, which leads in to a LAN finals series (similar to what they do in Europe with the IEM), this would be ideal. Not only do you play serious competitive games week in week out, the finals are held on LAN and determine the winner.

There are a lot of ideas that can and will work if we have the right people involved in running the competitions and I’m sure that if we actually want CS to continue and the community to stay alive, we can make it happen and probably make it better than it has been before.

ENDWALL

don't forget esea lan finals #131!

i want to hear what burton has to say about the situation

why

#132 Davio on the money. Completely Agree.

If 8 team nats;
3 state qualifiers with 2 invites up for grabs at each ($30 reg. PP) and a massive online comp (16+ teams hopefully @ $20 reg. PP) for the other 2 invites.

More teams wanted at nationals then just increase invites with similar ratio.

The online qualifier opens up opportunities for online players to attend LAN events, this could be what we are looking for to make the LAN scene larger. This way will encourage online players\teams to start attending LANs.

We need to also look at promoting CS to new players, perhaps we should do amateur comps or fun CS events to bring some attention back towards it. I also think it is worth a try to reach out to those small fun map communities.

Would be good to see this community increase.

I say try it. The worst thing that can happen is you have a few different teams going to a national finals (and that being bad is completely subjective anyway). It's not like the top teams aren't going to qualify.

I like it because you can almost take all of the financial problems away from the players who qualify, since autoberths will be so easy to supply.

If it ends and the majority aren't satisfied with the outcome, at least you will have done it and seen the results. That knowledge can then be applied to future comps (be it mixed online/lan qualifiers or going back to 100% lan).

well i think davio is on the mark aswell, with limited places if you had say 4-5 top X teams competing in bris only X get through the online quals could provide a second chance to ensure you actually get the best 8 or so teams at the final

Sounds like it's time to sit down, nut it out, make it happen.

fuck i hope i'm not the one that has to eat the sao.....

ain't nothing left to it but to do it

aH TcranE

also 4th-5th would be a bad date for us as exams finish 1week before that, requesting delay

guys fishballz cant make it, put it closer to christmas, oh wait.

guys burton has to leave at 4 so the nats will finish at 3

only day im available is sunday, so we gonnah hafto run nats over a few weeks

Sponny I dont like you cause you banter like a fuck but nice avatar!

online league would be sick might even revive the online scene

Online league run by people with a brain (beedee and co) would be actually insane, and if people know they are involved the better teams will sign up. Like all the good teams didn't really sing up for CyberGamer league (no offence to them) because to us they are just rands. Online league will defs help the online scene alot.

zym ladder was awesome, stats etc were domer.

i think regular online comps > a league.

People lost interest in a league because it runs for months but having an online comp once a month or so with prizes will get teams more interested. Throw in an amateur comp every now and then and BAM cs is in form :D

regular lan comps > regular lan leagues > online comps > a league

I really enjoyed everything about ZYM, like russ said the stats then there was weekly writeups about the games. It kept everything interesting. I think 1 day online comps are pretty boring, something that lasts a few months is way better for aus. Online teams will have something to prac for so there will be more teams to play online. ZYM was perfect and I'm sure DICE would do the same job if not better...

Online qualifiers would definitely help keep the national 16 team finals style competition alive.

There are also a number of flow-on effects from running events like this, for everyone here who loves LAN there's also a lot of people who don't want to do it because its too much hassle, would they change there mind if they knew they were in the top 8 and it was only going to take half a day on the weekend to do it? I think so.

This format would allow those to play in state run comps and only come to LAN if there in the final 8. 8 teams at a LAN center means less hassle, better format finals games, more time for the admins to look at way of improving the finals for a better experience (stats, prizes, better venues, hltv broadcast, commentary, national player rankings etc). You could also run 2 sets of finals, the top 8 teams one week and the bottom 8 teams another week for div 2 finals for example.

More players playing is always going to be better for the community.

ZAM Masters 2010 Rusty! Lets go!

LOL yeh #fragzone no.1 on zym ladder, fuck that was fun.

yeah that was leet... needs to be incentives for iM (male division)/kBs/archaic to play in an online league

Don't need shit. KBS will play no matter what. Archaic on the other hand..

Online league ? fuck oath

KBS already got heaps of incentives from dA_BoSS

Archaic can't even finish there group games :P

Would you play online qualifiers? No 80 ping from WA wouldnt be fair playing against 30 ping eastys. (We currently have 4 stable teams in WA that would go quals and there is enough people to form 5 or 6)
Does the format of the final matter? No
Is it too soon for another Nationals? No (Paid flights would be good for people who couldnt afford though as said in an above post)
Would an online (P2P) league be better in the interim? No. But should be done anyway

edit: Im not paying $500 to go play CS in a LAN final 4 times a year, and I doubt many other people would either :P

@ 162

I'm sure they can setup a server in Adelaide to balance out any ping issues for W.A. teams.

A better question for teams in W.A. is... Would you play online qualifiers if 2 teams from W.A. get there flights fully paid for to come to a LAN finals on the east coast?

how is that even possible #163? we would get 5teams max to an online qualifier wich would be what $500? from the qual.

also Adelaide servers are pretty avg for perth from recollection but obviously if there was 2 teams fully paid for who cares?

we'll play on WA servers, doesnt effect the result