Hey guys, I was looking for some feedback from the community about whether this certain setup should be deemed legitimate or not. My team, Uprising, used this setup against The Gun Show at the Dice National Cup 2010 Queensland qualifier on the weekend. Below is the video demonstrating the position.
If you don't walk along the edge backwards, you can see directly through the wall down into short/grassy area. Other players are visible through the wall. Our team figured it was similar to the ledge in A site on dust2, where it's legitimate to boost up as long as you don't clip the wall. Obviously in the clip above a dispute would've probably been succesful as I did clip the wall at the end however it is very possible and fairly easy to make it to the end of the ledge without clipping.
Just giving my 2 cents: Testing out going the wall, its incredibly hard to not clip atleast one of the 2 clippable walls (the one looking over to banana/long, and the other looking over to short/under-window). As you can see in the video, you have to face away the entire time and turn at the right time while edging near the corner.
While this in itself isnt that difficult, if anything happens (gunfire/fighting, as it did in this video) its near impossible to not accidentally clip the wall - again, as happened right at the end of the video.
Because of this, the second any team sees the opposing team do it (the only way they'd see it is if there was fighting) they would instantly dispute because of the very likely chance of the player clipping the wall for even a second. Because of that it shouldnt be allowed, as it will only caus delays and make alot of hassle for admins/tournaments.
As shit as that may be, sometimes you have to sacrifice certain gameplay elements for the sake of admin ease, its just not realistic to do otherwise. Ur either left with ruling the spot perfectly legal and allowing the clipping, or banning the spot preventing clipping all together. Having the middle ground of allowing the spot but the clipping illegal just isnt a realistic rule (for time etc as said before).
And it differs from the dust2 ledge because to clip that you have to be both facing long AND jumping, if ur not doing both those things u can move around freely all u want and not do it by accident. This wall all you need to do is accidentally move ur mouse a cm to the left or right and u clip a wall.
just some more food for thought, burton told me about his plans to use this boost during the qual i replied with
"you can do the boost at your own risk, if you do the boost and the team disputes it, even if only 1 pixel is clipped and it's an area where the opposition cannot be, im still taking 3 rounds off you"
I agree with striz with one of his points, that being its a massive hassle, but i don't agree we should ban it just because its admin ease to not handle disputes. We dont ban people throwing entry flashes on ramp room on nuke because it might bug, obviously the risk isnt as great, but it's still a risk.
People should be aware of the risks, and harshness of the penalty, and use their own judgment if they wanna roll the dice and boost.
if you wanna boost from mid to catwalk on dust2, its 2 1 man boosts (if you boost down near Xbox... or outside near ubreakable box on nuke, its a 1 man boost onto roof, and another 1 man boost into the ladder lookout.
i reckon if u have a teammate watching the area the clipping shouldnt matter. i mean if u have someone watch short/long for u as u move along, its not like an opponent can be there?
Dave is right, it creates to many problems and the possibility.
It isn't the same as the short boost where you actually have to jump, clipping is very avoidable there.
#19 whether or not there is a teammate watching a position doesn't matter and would create too many administration problems in itself if you were to allow clipping to an area that was 'being watched'
#19 it doesnt really matter, thats like saying you should be able to look under the vines wall at train if you know vines is clear, or you should be able to flashbug if you know it wont get anyone, or you can toggle on a wallhack but only if you look through walls where you know no1 will be (extreme example, but u get the pont), aswell as pretty much everything said in #20.
It just becomes too convoluted and way too hard to admin properly.
And #5 banning throwing flashing at ramps would cause the exact same delays/adminning issues im talking about, so its completely different than banning a boost onto a ledge, as that ban prevents the delays.
Also kinda irrelevant but a sidenote: im still of the belief that with both drax maps and the latest cs update its impossible to flashbug that ramp box - im willing to be proven wrong, but either way i havent seen a flashbug there at lan in an incredibly long time.
thats not the point, we dont ban things because 'there is a chance it could be illegal' if burton stopped his recording 5 seconds earlier it would of been a perfect display of using a ledge not everyone knows about.
I don't have a problem watching a demo if someone disputes it, its really easy to tell (even easier than flushbugs). But i think the threat of losing 3 rounds would be enough for people to not use it, and if they do so be it.
Would be good to expand the dice ruleset to include this (either ruling is fine and i'll support it) and the inferno bomb box and the train 5/6 vines wall
But it is the point really, when you have nationals and have to stick to a strict schedule you dont want to be having discussions between admins, finding the demos on wherever they're held, loading them on a pc that can open cs, viewing them and discussing it, coming to an agreement on the decision etc when you could be lo3'ing the next game.
With as many rules as possible, you need to find the right balance between not affecting gameplay and not affecting delays in tournaments (if we ran big worldwide events it would be a different story). I can gaurantee you that every single time a team used this spot, the opposing team would dispute. Including a rule that allows this to occur makes it a very poor ruleset, but this is all jsut my opinion.
And the dice ruleset does include the inf bomb box, vines wall, etc, and ill make it include a ruling on this when one is finalised (ill let geo have the final say).
pause the video at 0:42 in the bottom left of the screen, he glitches a tiny bit (even before the scene where he kills someone)
would you realistically deduct 3 rounds for that?
i can see this attitude occurring -
"ur a faggot for disputing this, i didn't even mean to glitch, no one was there anyway, you're gonna make us lose this game over a single pixel?" etc etc you get my drift
if you go with the "its legal but dont glitch" then i would 100% take 3 rounds off for the black glitch, if you dont police the rule black and white (either doing it or not) then it would never work, so yes 3 rounds off. When you introduce gray rules like "its gotta be somewhere they could be, and at least 40pixels or whatever thats when the rule gets retarded". My view is the same for the inferno under the box, compared to looking under the wall on train, one is allowed, the other isnt.
#35 if that's the case (that you would penalise the glitch at 0:42 (not the one at 0:49)) then i'd be fine with allowing the boost (from a fairness perspective)
onus would be on the person being boosted to be so careful that not even a pixel is glitched
it would however still leave the issues in #1, that is, admin time-restraints and the issue of enforcement
i'd still agree with dave that from a practical POV, it would be inefficient to allow it... with it being SO easy to glitch a single pixel (refer to 0:42 in the video), every time the spot was used, the other team would dispute (basically, what dave said in #30... nom nom nom dave's penis)
changing my mind, but not because of the time restraint reason.
What if we allowed it, you were up there but just going past the box on hill, spotted a push coming towards you, very slowly. you could easily jump down onto the box, or further up the ramp so it just made a footstep noise (not a hurt noise), and double flash, meanwhile your team is rotating from A behind them.
The other probably wouldnt even know, since you had jumped down.
So for that reason, of "suspected use" disputes combined with actual "disputes" im changing my vote.
rofl @ 38, but abuot the :42 glitch, would that even matter since all u see if black and it doesnt look through to banana? it would be like clipping at some randi wall where all u see is black anyway?
yeah but the only reason the clipping isnt aloud is because u can see adventageous stuff (afaik) for eg banana at that clip or long on d2, but with the black shit theres no advantage to doing it, that would be ur line imo
yeah but if the pixel is yellow it implies your seeing "through" the wall, if its black then ur seeing into the wall, but my arguement was the advantage of the clipping not which colour should be banned, the colour just happens to be synonymous with the clipping, need whip out ya usb to battle me mate ;) ahah
Testing out going the wall, its incredibly hard to not clip atleast one of the 2 clippable walls (the one looking over to banana/long, and the other looking over to short/under-window). As you can see in the video, you have to face away the entire time and turn at the right time while edging near the corner.
While this in itself isnt that difficult, if anything happens (gunfire/fighting, as it did in this video) its near impossible to not accidentally clip the wall - again, as happened right at the end of the video.
Because of this, the second any team sees the opposing team do it (the only way they'd see it is if there was fighting) they would instantly dispute because of the very likely chance of the player clipping the wall for even a second. Because of that it shouldnt be allowed, as it will only caus delays and make alot of hassle for admins/tournaments.
As shit as that may be, sometimes you have to sacrifice certain gameplay elements for the sake of admin ease, its just not realistic to do otherwise. Ur either left with ruling the spot perfectly legal and allowing the clipping, or banning the spot preventing clipping all together. Having the middle ground of allowing the spot but the clipping illegal just isnt a realistic rule (for time etc as said before).
And it differs from the dust2 ledge because to clip that you have to be both facing long AND jumping, if ur not doing both those things u can move around freely all u want and not do it by accident. This wall all you need to do is accidentally move ur mouse a cm to the left or right and u clip a wall.
"you can do the boost at your own risk, if you do the boost and the team disputes it, even if only 1 pixel is clipped and it's an area where the opposition cannot be, im still taking 3 rounds off you"
I agree with striz with one of his points, that being its a massive hassle, but i don't agree we should ban it just because its admin ease to not handle disputes. We dont ban people throwing entry flashes on ramp room on nuke because it might bug, obviously the risk isnt as great, but it's still a risk.
People should be aware of the risks, and harshness of the penalty, and use their own judgment if they wanna roll the dice and boost.
burton the man with new tricks
even the dust2 ledge boost
especially the mega nuke rock
possibly some drax-like fix where fat black boxes to stop vision are added tho?
not sure about 'boost' rules but the one at short a on dust2 is a 1 man boost, your one is 2 one man boosts
if you wanna boost from mid to catwalk on dust2, its 2 1 man boosts (if you boost down near Xbox... or outside near ubreakable box on nuke, its a 1 man boost onto roof, and another 1 man boost into the ladder lookout.
editing 3/10
music - priceless
kudos to song selection.
does the glitching become acceptable if your teammate becomes flashed? what if he can't see it as he's smoked in? - what about half flashed?
if there is area/line that you can see with but your teammate below can't spot due to textures being in the way, is that ok?
for admin-time issues like in #1, shouldn't be allowed the boost
It isn't the same as the short boost where you actually have to jump, clipping is very avoidable there.
#19 whether or not there is a teammate watching a position doesn't matter and would create too many administration problems in itself if you were to allow clipping to an area that was 'being watched'
cbf checking that line
It just becomes too convoluted and way too hard to admin properly.
Also kinda irrelevant but a sidenote: im still of the belief that with both drax maps and the latest cs update its impossible to flashbug that ramp box - im willing to be proven wrong, but either way i havent seen a flashbug there at lan in an incredibly long time.
I don't have a problem watching a demo if someone disputes it, its really easy to tell (even easier than flushbugs). But i think the threat of losing 3 rounds would be enough for people to not use it, and if they do so be it.
Would be good to expand the dice ruleset to include this (either ruling is fine and i'll support it) and the inferno bomb box and the train 5/6 vines wall
With as many rules as possible, you need to find the right balance between not affecting gameplay and not affecting delays in tournaments (if we ran big worldwide events it would be a different story). I can gaurantee you that every single time a team used this spot, the opposing team would dispute. Including a rule that allows this to occur makes it a very poor ruleset, but this is all jsut my opinion.
And the dice ruleset does include the inf bomb box, vines wall, etc, and ill make it include a ruling on this when one is finalised (ill let geo have the final say).
pause the video at 0:42
in the bottom left of the screen, he glitches a tiny bit (even before the scene where he kills someone)
would you realistically deduct 3 rounds for that?
i can see this attitude occurring -
"ur a faggot for disputing this, i didn't even mean to glitch, no one was there anyway, you're gonna make us lose this game over a single pixel?" etc etc you get my drift
pretty sure its the same thinking even though no one saw the exploit it still happened
I will raise that illegal by this:
still illegal.
onus would be on the person being boosted to be so careful that not even a pixel is glitched
it would however still leave the issues in #1, that is, admin time-restraints and the issue of enforcement
i'd still agree with dave that from a practical POV, it would be inefficient to allow it... with it being SO easy to glitch a single pixel (refer to 0:42 in the video), every time the spot was used, the other team would dispute (basically, what dave said in #30... nom nom nom dave's penis)
What if we allowed it, you were up there but just going past the box on hill, spotted a push coming towards you, very slowly. you could easily jump down onto the box, or further up the ramp so it just made a footstep noise (not a hurt noise), and double flash, meanwhile your team is rotating from A behind them.
The other probably wouldnt even know, since you had jumped down.
So for that reason, of "suspected use" disputes combined with actual "disputes" im changing my vote.
But the other half don't.
Totally
Also they banned boosting on Dust2 in bombsite B where the B-entrance tunnel is (the brown rock where players sometimes goblin)
should not be allowed.
but if it's yellow (dust coloured) then you get penalised?
seems like a fairly arbitrary line k.hoppah
banned is banned. tits are tits. thats it